The sepsitor debate.

[Angron]

So there seems to be a debate on how forced ZOC AROs and sepsitors interact.

For example a skiavaros comes out of LOF into another models ZOC forcing a change of facing. Then the second short of the skiavaros is sepsitor attack

One faction thinks it's unopposed because the ARO was change facing.
The other faction believes that there is still the usual FTF Willpower test.

The attack of sepsitor states that the roll is an opposed FTF unless the target is aroing in a different manner for example hacking or shooting at the model that is initiating sepsitor.


What are your opinions?

[brianw]

Well since Sepsitor can also be outside LoF what can be done then? It's kinda similar being in ZoC but not in LoF.

I'd say you need to choose. I think that unless they have Sixth Sense L2 or 360 visor the only thing they can do is turn to face or fight the Sepsitor. If they have SSL2 or 360 they could do a face to face of Shoot vs. Sepsitor or fight the Sepsitor with Willpower. Wip is better than BS most of the time but if you do damage to the enemy...

[Angron]

The root of the issue I think is " is resisting the sepsitor count as an ARO "

I don't think so. That's like saying an armor roll is your aro. It's part of the attack. You roll against the sepsitor.

[Kailaria]

By the RAW (including officially answered questions on the forums by CB), the ZoC ARO forces the Change Facing action as the unit's ARO, which then denies it from making the Sepsitor attack a FtF roll.

However, I'm also in the camp that dislikes CB's ruling that is causing such hullabaloo (it's also an issue with Sixth Sense and out of LoF but in ZoC non-Sepsitor attacks) and would prefer that we keep it house ruled (especially for Adepticon) in such a way that you can still make it FtF, but in the sense that an anti-Sepsitor ARO overrides an in-ZoC-out-of-LoF ARO. I believe that this should also apply to SS vs. a ZoC-triggered ARO, as it otherwise makes SS practically useless against someone who's trying to WaaC and will avoid shooting an SS model unless they get w/in ZoC of them to force Change Facing as their ARO.

Basically, I think anti-Sepsitor is an ARO since it can be made face-to-face using other ARO techniques (shooting, hacking) as well if they are available. By the same token, Anti-Hacker Protocols doesn't automatically award the target of the AHP attack a FtF roll for hacking if it decides to do other Skills.

[brianw]

I think that Sepsitor should be modified by BTS too. Isn't that the very thing it's supposed to defend against?

[kuozar]

CB came in and made a ruling on it? But I feel that Sepsitor should always be a FtF roll. So even if you were to trigger a ZoC change facing, they would still get the WIP FtF against the Sepsitor.

[Angron]

Yeah where's the ruling. I have a strong feeling that this will come up.

So going with the argument that the forced change facing denies the FTF why couldn't it be a FTF vs ph like a dodge.

I'm of the opinion that the FTF always happens, it's how the attack is performed , you have the option to make it a different FTF if you could hack or shoot.

[Angron]

I don't think that resisting the sepsitor is an aro but you have the option to resist by other means.

[kelreth]

Resisting sepsitor as ARO would also make resisting hacking an aro then right?

I agree with John

[Angron]

I sent an email over to palanka to attempt to get an official ruling.

[kelreth]

Or just have a sign at Adepticon.

TO Ruling: Sepsitor is like being shot, you always get to roll against it. Have a goooooooooooood day.

Then whoever complains about it should get a dunce hat.

[Kailaria]

There isn't a direct ruling applying to Sepsitor. However, looking at the following quote from Sepsitor (bold emphasis mine):

Shooting a Sepsitor is a Short Attack Skill. In order to use the Sepsitor, a WIP Face to Face Roll is made against the WIP or other Skill used by the target, which must be a figure with a Cube.

seems to indicate that countering Sepsitor with your WIP is a pseudo-skill, something not explicitly stated as a skill but is grouped with "other [possible skills] used by the target" which do count as an ARO. Combine this with the FAQ that a Sepsitor attack on an unconscious model is a normal roll, and you get the reasoning why I'm in the camp that believes that anti-Sepsitor is an ARO by the RAW.

And then, if you combine this with the following quote from the FAQ (which is apparently still attempting to be discussed with CB to attempt a better wording):

Q: If a model acts behind Line Of Fire Blocking Cover, but inside the Zone Of Control of a model not getting into the AROIng models Line Of Fire with the first Short skill, but with the second short skill, does in this situation the AROing model loses its chance to ARO because the model was in its Zone Of Control when it declared its first short skill?
A: Yes.

and that the only exceptions to the order in which an ARO can be declared is when dealing with Camo, and you get the Change Facing forces a normal roll Sepsitor attack.

Granted, I'm not saying we should play it like that (and neither are many other people who are actually in this camp), but the rules specifically support it in the extremely gamey & unfun method described above.

Edit: This thread is where a lot of the arguing happened, and I haven't heard anything else since then aside from the party line from IJW & BlueDagger of "we're trying to get CB to discuss this", especially considering it contradicts the Spanish wiki (which apparently the general idea of rules precedence is spanish wiki > english wiki > posts by CB > PMs to rules mods from CB > spanish rules > english rules).

[scadugenga]

I think Sphendule hit the crux of the argument on the head: the wording is spotty in the English rules. First it states that the Sepsitor must succeed in a WP FTF roll. Which implies that you should always be able to choose "take a guts check" (WP roll) as an ARO, regardless of position. Only if the ARO model chooses to make other than a WP ARO does it become a normal roll on the part of the Sepsitor model.

[brianw]

So what can you do as an ARO? Can you dodge out of the zone of control if you are on the edge?

[Angron]

The issue is that coming into the models zone of control out of LOF forces the aro turn to face. Thus not allowing the victim of the sepsitor attack the option of a face to face willpower test under the pretense that the face to face is an aro.


I personally don't believe it to be that way. I interpret it that the face to face is part of the attack. More like an armor save.

I can see it both ways but the way that makes it a normal roll feels dirty. For example if you sneak up on some one the same way and end up in LOF you would get an unopposed shot with a bs weapon. But the victim at least gets an armor save.


I still haven't decided how it's going to be played if it comes up at Adepticon.